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布什與清華學生脣槍舌箭(中英全文)
 
【人民報消息】北京時間2月22日10時15分,美國總統布什開始在清華大學主樓的演講。王大中校長主持演講會。350名學生參加。中國國家副主席胡錦濤、中國駐美大使楊潔篪等陪同。首先是王大中講話。然後胡錦濤簡單致詞、布什演講。接着是清華學生提問。

據聯合早報報道,以下是美國總統布什在北京清華大學與學生對話的中英全文:

清華學生用英文提問:昨天您和江主席進行了談話,並且開了聯合發佈會,您在這個會上沒有清楚地回答一個問題,那就是戰區導彈防禦系統是否會包含臺灣在內?另外,我還想問,談到臺灣問題的時候,您說和平解決,您對和平統一是怎樣的看法?

布什:非常好的問題,首先,我很讚賞你的英文,非常好!講到臺灣問題,很重要的一點就是美國的政府在講到如何和平解決臺灣問題的時候,總是說到和平、對話,我們強調和平這個字,我們指的是雙方都要以和平的方式來解決,任何一方都不可以進行任何挑釁的行爲。

我跟中國的領導人有過多次的談話,每一次我們都強調我是支持中國的政策,而且這是長期一貫的政策,到目前爲止沒有改變。

至於有關導彈防禦系統,我已經說得非常清楚,這是一個防禦性的系統,是要幫助我們的盟友和其他一些國家來保護他們免受無賴國家的攻擊,這些國家是希望發展大規模殺傷性武器的,我想制定這一點,對和平是非常有重要的,我昨天也非常清楚地說明這是事實。我們目前正在發展導彈防禦系統的過程中,目前還不知道可行不可行,但是我覺得對全世界的和平會帶來貢獻。

還有一點,我覺得對中國人來說,對美國人來說這一點必須要知道,美國政府希望能夠以和平的方式解決發生在全世界的許多問題,那因爲美國現在處理的問題非常多,好象中東的問題,你們從新聞上看到以後知道了,這是一個非常危險的時代,我們正在努力地致力於和平,我們希望克什米爾的問題也能夠和平解決,這對中國也非常重要的。我來中國以前,我到了韓國,我也明確表示,我希望以和平的方式解決朝鮮半島的問題。

清華大學傳播系學生:很遺憾,您剛才還是沒有明確的回答,您總是說和平解決,而沒有說和平統一。三天前您在日本訪問時,在議會發表演講說,美國將牢記對臺灣的承諾,我想問總統先生這樣一個問題,美國是否還牢記他對十三億中國人民的承諾呢?那就是遵守《中美三個聯合公報》和「三不」政策。

布什:感謝您,我想臺灣問題是全世界都關心的問題。我想,就臺灣的問題,我已經再明確不過了,就是我急切地看到,希望臺灣的問題能夠得到和解,這就是我爲什麼說到需要和平對話的原因,我也希望這件事情能夠在我有生之年,或者你有生之年能夠成就,這將是一個重要的里程碑。美國政府是這樣的,我們一旦簽署了什麼協議,或是我們進入了什麼協議,我們都會遵守這個協議,我們在美國有與臺灣關係法,我們曾經承諾要保護臺灣。但是我們已經明確說明,任何一方都不能有挑釁的行爲。

清華大學經管學院學生:總統先生,歡迎您這次來訪,感謝您剛才精采的演講。我們可以預見到,中美兩國的學術文化交流活動前景是非常廣闊的,那麼,剛才在您精采的演講當中,我也看得出來,您對我們清華大學給予了很高的評價。那麼現在我的問題就是,如果將來您的兩個寶貝女兒有機會繼續深造的話,您願意讓您的女兒來我們清華大學嗎?

布什:但是她們已經不再聽話了。我想,你知道我的意思吧,首先我希望她們能夠來清華,因爲這是一個非常奇妙的國家。我第一次來中國的時候,是1975年,跟現在相比,我實在很難用言語來形容中國發生的翻天覆地的變化。我當了總統以後第一次來中國是到的上海。她們跟美國的很多學生一樣,都希望到中國來看一看。所以我覺得我們兩國之間,進行學術,或是學生交流是非常必要的。而且,我也覺得美國應該歡迎中國的學生到美國去學習。因爲我覺得這樣子對中國的留學生來說是有好處的,對美國的學生本身也是非常有好處的。我想,很重要的一點就是我們必須了解,我們兩國的人民必須了解我們都是人,我們都是有七情六慾的,都是有我們的煩惱的,都是有我們的快樂的。連年紀比較大的公民,像我們的副總統也是一樣的。因爲我們如果一起交流,我們一起有時間在一起的話,我們能夠雙方更加了解,這是對我們有利的。因爲,在我們雙邊的關係中,我們的的確確有一些問題是不能夠百分之百地達成一致的意見。但是,當你能夠跟一個人相互更多的理解,更多的了解的話,您可能就這些分歧進行更好地討論,畢竟我們是人,是有血有肉的人。

我覺得非常重要的有一點,我們認識我們畢竟是血肉之軀,我們畢竟是人,所以有一些事情,比如我提到了家人,我認爲家庭在社會中是不可分割,也是一個非常重要的組成部分。中國在歷史上,文化上,有敬老愛幼,尊重家人的傳統,我希望美國也有這樣的傳統,這個概念不只是給某一個國家的,這是全球性的概念。當兩國的學生聚在一起,一起學習的時候,我們能夠更加理解對方的價值觀,我想這樣就能更加貢獻於世界的和平。

清華大學傳播系學生:去年聖誕節前,您的弟弟曾經訪問過我們清華大學,他來的時候講,在美國有很多人,特別是政界對中國有很多的誤解,剛才副主席和您提到,兩國都想促進兩國之間的關係健康發展和人員之間的交流,我的問題是作爲美國總統,您打算採取哪些具體的措施促進我們人員之間在各個層面的交流?

布什:首先,我想來到中國訪問,來到清華大學就是回答你的問題。因爲美國人現在非常注意我訪華的整個行程。那我想大家應該有興趣知道,我上回先到上海,在很短的時間內,在冬天來到了北京,在很短的時間內兩次訪華,這一點可以向您說明,我如何看重我們雙邊的關係。很重要的就是讓美國政界的領導人能夠訪問中國,很多已經來過了,還有許多人還要來。能夠來看一看,我們回去向他們形容中國的時候,會比較準確,我回到美國以後,我會告訴他們中國是一個偉大的國家,有非常悠久、優秀的歷史,但是不止如此,還有非常美好的未來。

很多美國人對中國非常感興趣,不只是來看非常漂亮的中國,而且對中國人,對中國文化有更進一步的了解,我想我們兩個國家都必須繼續鼓勵雙邊的人民相互訪問。

我想可以在很大程度上改變全世界對中國印象的一個機會就是當你們舉辦奧林匹克運動會的時候,這將是一個太好的機會了。所以,到時候全世界的人都要來到中國,不只是看運動會,還可以看到中國現代化的發展,不止來的人可以看到,全世界的人通過電視轉播都可以看到,所以,奧委會讓北京得到2008年奧運會的主辦權是有道理的。

提問:您1975年來過中國,到現在20多年過去了,您剛才也提到中國發生了很多變化,您有沒有發現除了經濟以外的中國社會的一些進步?

布什:我想,我來中國發現最凸現的一個現象,當然是稍微跟經濟有關的,但是總的來說就是整個人民的態度的改變。因爲在1975年的時候,我來的時候,每個人的服裝都是一樣的。現在你們高興穿什麼就穿什麼。你看你們第一排的,全都是不一樣的服裝,因爲你覺得這是我喜歡的,我要這麼穿。當你要套上漂亮的羊毛上衣的時候,你說這是我做的決定。當你主動地作出這樣的決定的時候,別的人看了,他們也要作出自己的決定。因此,一個產品的需求就影響了整個的生產,而不是由生產來影響產品的需求。如果你能夠認識到在市場上的每一個人的這種需要,這就是自由社會的一個現象之一。這就是我們解釋自由的其中一個意義。

所以,我來到這裏,我看見的不只是高樓大廈,我覺得最明顯的就是每個人現在可以自由地作出他自己的選擇了。有了做個人選擇的自由,你就可以有其他的自由,你可以自由地做其他的事情。所以,您就知道爲什麼75年跟現在相比,我這麼驚歎中國這麼大的變化,但是我覺得還要加上一句,就是這個變化是朝更好的方向發展的。我只能再回答一個問題,然後我跟你們的主席吃飯去了。

提問:謝謝您給我提最後這個問題的機會。我以前有幸讀過您的一本自傳,您提到美國社會的存在的一些社會問題,校園犯罪,青年暴力,貧困兒童問題。據我所知,我們清華一位校友去年在美國就學期間被槍殺了,這種問題現在還在越演越烈。作爲美國的總統,您對解決目前美國的人權狀況有何打算呢?

布什:首先要告訴你們的是,現在暴力犯罪率在美國已經開始下降了,但是隻要有一起犯罪案就算太多了。只要一個人對他的鄰居會施行暴力,那就是不能接受的。在美國的確有很多人還處在貧困當中,美國政府花了很大筆金錢來幫助處於貧困中的人,希望他們以後能夠自力更生。當我們競選的時候,我們最大的一個討論,或是一個辯論的題目就是如何幫助別人自力更生。當然,對美國總統來說,在選舉的時候,外交問題也是一個重要的課題。但是,美國的選民他們更注意的是國內政治局勢,他們比較關注國內的問題。所以,當經濟出現疲軟的時候,就像美國目前的情形,他們就想要知道現在應該怎麼樣拯救經濟。如果經濟情況好的話,他們根本不談經濟。我們常常在競選的時候談到兩個主要的關鍵問題,第一個就是我們的社會保障制度的結構問題,就是如何來幫助美國的這些需要社會福利的人,幫助他們有一個條件,就是不能讓他們過度的,或是長期地依賴政府。另外一個常常討論的問題就是教育。這個問題在競選的時候可能不是那麼重要,但是你當選了以後就非常重要了。當我還是當德克薩斯州州長的時候,我常常說一句話,如果你能夠給一個兒童非常好的教育,你就能夠避免他以後出去犯罪。

當了總統以後,我跟兩黨的議員們都希望制定一個計劃,就是幫助學齡前的兒童能夠有一個非常好的開始,還沒有到學校,就可以開始學習了。現在美國一個比較令人悲傷的一個事實,就是現在在美國有一些四年級的小學生,沒有辦法達到他們那個年級的閱讀能力。

如果你想想四年級還不能閱讀的話,那他到了初二的時候就更不能閱讀了,他畢業了以後,根本無法繼續上大學。所以如果這種情形繼續下去的話,對美國來說是一條死路。所以,在去年的時候,我就向國會呈上了一個議案,我們在國會中經過了很多的討論,今年,我也希望州一級和地方一級的立法機關,就這個問題,繼續推動這些倡議。我想我們的重點是放在教導他們閱讀方面。今年我的夫人和我也要繼續推動一個計劃,就是學齡前的兒童能夠得到教育。我慢慢地會回答你的問題。教育就是反犯罪的一個最好的途徑,執法是很重要的。讓人們因自己的行爲而受到懲罰,或者負擔起責任,這是重要的。但是我們堅持我們的政策的一致,也是非常重要的,也就是說,你如果犯罪了,就必須受刑罰。

所以,最符合美國的利益的,最能夠長期解決這個問題的,就是讓每個人都有受教育的機會,我想這對我們的未來是非常好的。謝謝大家。


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QUESTION (through translator): Mr. President, yesterday I watched press conference made by you and President Jiang Zemin, but at the conference you didn't clearly answer a question which is concerned by almost everybody, which is whether the TMD (ph) system will cover Taiwan.

And what's more, whenever you talk about the Taiwan issue you always use the phrase just like "peaceful settlement". You never use the phrase "`peaceful reunification." What's the difference and why?

BUSH: Thank you. Very good question. First of all, I want to compliment you on your English. Very good.

The first thing that is important on the Taiwan issue is that my government hopes there is a peaceful, as I said, dialogue; that there is a settlement to this issue. But it must be done in a peaceful way. That's why I keep emphasizing peaceful.

And by the way, peaceful is a word intended for both parties, that neither party should provoke, that go ahead, I'm sorry.

TRANSLATOR: First of all oh, I'm sorry.

BUSH: She's correcting my English.

TRANSLATOR: I'm sorry, Mr. President.

BUSH: We've had many discussions with your leaders, and I've reiterated support for the one-China policy. It's been my government's policy for a long period of time, and I haven't changed it.

I also, in your question about missile defenses, have made it clear that our nation will develop defenses to help our friends, our allies and others around the world protect ourselves from rogue nations that have the _ that are trying to develop weapons of mass destruction. To me, that is essential for peace in the world.

We have yet to develop a system. And therefore that's exactly what I said yesterday, and it's the truth. But we're in the process of seeing if we can't develop a system, and I think it'll bring more stability to the world than less.

And let me just say one general comment that's very important for you to know, and it's also important for the people of my country to know: that my administration is committed to peacefully resolving issues around the world. We want the issues resolved in a peaceful manner.

And we've got a lot of issues that we deal with. We're dealing in the Middle East. And if you follow the news, it's a very dangerous period of time there. We're working hard to bring a peaceful resolution there.

We're working hard to bring a peaceful resolution to Kashmir, which is important for China.

And I recently went to Korea, and I made it very clear that we want to resolve the issues on the Korean Peninsula in a peaceful way.

Another question, please. Yes, ma'am, please?

QUESTION: It's a pity you still haven't given us a clear question about whether you always used "peaceful settlement". But you have never said "peaceful reunification". It's a pity.

BUSH: We're back on Taiwan again. Let me go ahead.

QUESTION: Because this is a question our Chinese people are extremely concerned about.

BUSH: Yes, I know.

QUESTION: Three days ago, during your speech in the Japanese parliament, you said the United States will still remember its commitment to Taiwan.

BUSH: Right.

QUESTION: But my question is, does the U.S. still remember its commitment to 1.3 billion Chinese people abiding by the three joint communique and the three 'no's? Thank you.

BUSH: Yes. Thank you very much. As I said, this seems to be a topic on people's mind, obviously. I can't say it any more clearly that I am anxious that there be a peaceful resolution. And that's going to require both parties to come to a solution.

And that's what I mean by peaceful dialogue. And it is I hope it happens in my lifetime. And I hope it happens in yours. It'll make it'll be an important milestone.

And secondly, when my country makes an agreement, we stick with it. And there is called the Taiwan Relations Act, and I honor that act, which says we will help Taiwan defend herself if provoked. But we've also sent the same message that there should be no provocation by either party for a peaceful dialogue.

Next question? Yes, ma'am.

QUESTION: Mr. President, I am a student coming from the school of economics and management in Tsinghua University. As we can see, China and the United States have a bright future in scientific and cultural exchanges.

Now, just now, you have made warm remarks about our universities, so my question is, if possible, will you be happy to encourage your daughters to study in our university? Thank you.

BUSH: I'm afraid they don't listen to me any more, if you know what I mean.

Let me first of all, I hope they do come here. It is an amazing country.

You know, as I said, I was here in 1975. It is hard for me to describe the difference; it is an amazing transformation. I first saw that in Shanghai earlier this fall or last fall. And they would benefit from coming here, as would a lot of other United States students.

I think our student exchange program is very important. I think our nation must be welcoming to Chinese students who would like to go study in America. I think that would benefit the students, but as importantly it would benefit American students. 

It's so important for people to realize in both our countries that we're dealing with human beings that have got desires and loves and frustrations. Even old citizens like me and the vice president.

Even older citizens like me and the vice president can benefit by spending time getting to know each other. Obviously, there are some issues in our relationship that we don't see 100 percent don't have 100 percent agreement on. But it is so much better to discuss these issues after you get to know a person as a person.

We're human beings first and foremost. There are just some important characteristics that are real. And you mentioned you know, I talked about my families in my speech. Family is just such an important, integral part of any society. And China has got a grand history of honoring family. That is an important tradition, an important part of your culture. And you know, I hope my country as well has a is known for a strong tradition of family.

That's a concept that's not owned by a particular country. It is universal. And when students get to know each other they learn the universality of many values. And that's going to be important for peace in the world.

Another question?  Yes, ma'am?

QUESTION: Well, Mr. President, I'm a student from Center for International Communication Studies. Well, your younger brother Neil Bush visited our university just before last Christmas, and he mentioned that there are many Americans, especially politicians, have a lot of misunderstandings about China. So just as our vice president, Hu Jintao, and you mentioned, you all want to make efforts to promote the Sino-American relationship to go ahead smoothly.

So my question is, being the president of the United States, will it take some action to promote the compacts and exchanges between the two countries, between the peoples at all different levels? Thank you.

BUSH: Well, thank you. That's a very good question. Well, first of all, my trip here and my discussion here helps promote...

People in my country are paying attention to my visit here. And it should interest you that I was here in the fall and I'm back here again in the winter: twice in a very brief period of time. That should say something about the importance of our relationships. It's important for our political leaders to come to China. And I know many have and more ought to come.

It's important for the rhetoric and we describe what we have seen to be accurate and real. And when I go back home I describe a great nation, a nation that's not only got a great history, but an unbelievably exciting future.

Many people in my country are very interested in China. And many come, as you know. They come to not only see the beautiful countryside, but they come to learn more about the culture and the people. And we've got to continue to encourage travel between both of our countries.

But you know what's going to really make a significant difference in the world understanding of your great country is the Olympics. It's going to be a fantastic opportunity. It is. It's going to be a chance for people from all over the world, not only to come and visit and to stay in hotels and to see the modernization that's taken place, but everybody in the world is going to watch it on TV too. And it's going to be a great opportunity.

And I think and that's one of the reasons why I think it made sense to give Beijing the Olympics in 2008.

Yes, sir? Go ahead and yell it.

QUESTION: Mr. President, you have been to China in 1975 and you have mentioned just now there are a lot of changes in the Chinese society. And besides the progress in economy, have you noticed any other social progress in the Chinese society? Thank you.

BUSH: Well, I appreciate that. Let me tell you my most notable the thing I've noticed the most and it has to do with the economy, but it also has to do with a different attitude toward the people. In 1975, everybody wore the same clothes. Now people pick their own clothes.

Just look here on the front row: Everybody's dressed differently because you thought this is what you wanted.

You made the decision to wear a beautiful red sweater. And when you made that decision, somebody made it. In other words, the person, the individual, the demand for a product influences the production as opposed to the other way around.

Recognizing the desires of the individual in the marketplace is part of a free society. It is a part of the definition of freedom. And I see that as the most significant change that I can see besides the new buildings and all of the construction. But the most important thing is the human dimension of freeing people to decide for themselves.

And with that freedom comes other freedoms. So you can understand why the transformation from my memory of 1975 to today is significant. I mean it is an amazing change. For the better, I might add.

I'll answer one more question, then I got to go have lunch with your president.

Yes, sir, in the blue?

QUESTION: Thank you, Mr. Bush. Thank you, Mr. President, for giving me the last chance to ask you a question. And I read your autobiography and in it you wrote about some social problem in the U.S. today, just like the violence and the juvenile delinquency and such as the children in poverty. And we know as far as we know our former schoolmates of our university, Tsinghua, and he study in USA and was killed last year. And I feel so sad. And I know this kind of crime has become more and more serious in today U.S. As the president, do you have any good plan to improve the human rights today in the U.S.? Thank you.

BUSH: Sure. Well, first of all, I'm proud to report that violent crime is actually going down. But any crime is too much crime. I mean, any time somebody is violent toward their neighbor, it's too much violence.

And there's no question we've got people living in poverty. But as I mentioned, our government is very generous in the amounts of money we spend trying to help people help themselves.

When we all campaign for office, one of the big debates is how best to help people help themselves.

Foreign policy is an important part of our campaigns, of course, at least for president. But the American voter really is more focused on domestic politics, what's happening at home, as you can imagine. If the economy is soft, like ours is now, they want to know what's going to happen ``What are you doing about the economy?''

If the economy's good, then they don't talk much about the economy. But always we talk about two key issues, to address your problem. One is welfare. How do we structure a welfare system that helps people in need and in my judgment should not make them dependent upon their government?

And the other big issue is education. It's always not only an important part of campaigns, but it's important part of being once you're in office.  When I was the governor of Texas, I used to always say an educated child is one less likely to commit a crime. As governor, and now as president, I've spent a lot of time working with members of both political parties to develop an education plan that starts making sure children learn before they just get shuffled through the system.

One of the saddest facts about my country is that there are a significant number of fourth-grade students who cannot read at grade level. Imagine a child who can't read in the fourth grade is a child that's not going to be able to read in the eighth grade. And if the child can't read in the eighth grade, it's likely that child's not going to be able to read sufficiently when they get out of high school, and therefore won't be able to go to college. It's a shame in America that that's the case.

So as part of an education bill I managed to get through Congress last year, we got a significant reading initiative where we'll work with the states and the local jurisdictions to focus on an education program that emphasizes reading.

This year I hope to work, with my wife and others, on an early childhood development program, so the youngsters get the building blocks to learn how to read. I'm actually working my way to your question, I promise you.

Because education is the best anti-crime program.

It's important to enforce law. It's important to hold people accountable for their actions.

It is important to have consistent policy that says, ``If you harm somebody, there will be a punishment for that harm.''

But in the best interests for my country, the long-term solution is to make sure the education system works for everybody. And when that happens, there'll be a more hopeful future for people, and there'll be less poverty, less hopelessness and less crime.

Listen, thank you for letting me come. God bless you all.

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